Interview with Janina Gawler (CEO of ANTA)

Interview conducted by Frank Bate

Frank: I'm here with Janina Gawler, the new CEO of ANTA, thanks for being part of the e-journal Janina. First of all, your background, you come from the mining industry, and there's obviously some issues there in terms of delivering training over vast geographical distances. Have you a particular perspective on the use of elearning and online technologies in vocational education and training?

Janina: Well Frank I'm delighted to be here today, to have the opportunity to talk with yourself and also with people who are engaging with this technology, I think it's fantastic. But let me tell you a little bit about myself, and also my experiences both in the mining industry and obviously with my background in education. Bringing the two together and working in the ANTA and VET environment. I worked in the mining industry across Australia for the last six years, and in terms of engagement with elearning and technology, it was cutting edge because the organisation I was working for, Rio Tinto, global company, relied heavily on communications through network so I'm in constant communication objective issues, obviously through standard interface with email. But apart from that, the recognition to ensure that you've got cutting edge information, you have to be connected internationally to find out what is happening. And one of the benefits that I saw was that the research and technology area that we had, which was central to our organisation, people would be engaged in discussions about resolving issues that they were confronting in the workplace. They were identifying areas where they could get expertise online and then applying that immediately in the workplace, and changing what was happening there and then. So that was one aspect in terms of increased productivity and opportunities for individuals to actually get cutting edge information. But the other aspect of it is most of the mining, certainly in Australia, and internationally occurs in quite remote locations. Now people have a sense that getting technology into those locations is difficult. The reality is its not. And mining in particular relies on a high level technological capability in remote locations to solve very difficult physical problems, but also ensuring that their knowledge about what's happening is immediate. So that was the context in which I worked. And I can talk a bit more about the indigenous communities in particular. But it was day to day reality, and my point of view in coming to the VET sector, I think that the learning environment provides fantastic opportunities, to really interface effectively with new opportunities for knowledge, sharing that in the workplace and indeed in the education sector.

Frank: Well it seems to me that VET has a number of different clients, and flexible learning in the context of these clients is quite complex. You know, for instance theres different drivers, business is probably looking at productivity and competitive advantage, individuals might be looking at access, communities might be looking at more social justice type issues. How do you balance all these competing demands for VET, what's most important, and what are the high pay off flexible learning activities?

Janina: first of all, why VET, and why ANTA, why does ANTA exist. ANTA is an industry led organisation, encouraging highly competitive workforce, employees being engaged in their own learning, lifelong and adding value into the communities in which the industry exists. Now, yes, there are competing issues, but the reason that the VET sector goes through the state and commonwealth perspective, and the work that im involved in is ensuring that the delivery of VET meets industry needs at the very front edge. That technology, available through elearning, I think is a way forward, and I really do think that its one area that we need to spend a lot more time looking at in terms of delivery for the future. People who are competent and comfortable in it are doing it now, its ensuring that everybody has access to it. In terms of community engagement, the opportunity to work through the ICT environment, to access information, to understand how use those computers, how you communicate, how you build knowledge, how you interface with other organisations and communities. It opens up new doors that were just impossible historically. And in fact industry, particularly in the mining industry, the reason that they had to undertake significant changes, in the way in which they engaged with communities, is because people were finding out about what was happening in remote areas because of the internet. So the pressure that community organisations would place through this sort of learning environment to sort of shape industry engagement with their community was quite significant. How does a community engage in this area? Well obviously the VET sector is committed to community development, but its not the fundamental in which it was set up, it was set up with an industry framework, and I think the opportunity that comes from that technology that is available to the community is very important, and I think we have to harness that as part of the national strategy for VET sector.

Frank: So do you see these interests as actually being competing?

Janina: I don't see them as competitive at all; it's a bit like the home environment that we've anglicised for the interface of electronics, it was set up as an industry environment, but has the cutting edge of industry starts to be picked up by other industries such as home entertainment, people start to utilise it. Their capital working in that new interface gives an access to a new environment, that the infrastructures there, it's not being utilised, its not being utilised at the level, certainly not in the vet environment. I think that the opportunity being provided by elearning is opening learning to people who previously didn't have that access. And encouraging people to recognise that it's not difficult, that it is something that gives them a whole avenue of engagement in a way that will augment their employment yes, but also the way in which the contribute to their communities.

Frank: You've mentioned before the indigenous communities, how do we engage indigenous communities in elearning and in training generally?

Janina: For indigenous communities living particularly in remote parts of this country, there's been a challenge around the provision of access. And the reality is that some fantastic work has happened in indigenous communities around elearning, access to their archives, access to their cultural heritage that previously had been locked away from people. I think both for indigenous people and people from disadvantaged backgrounds, the recognition that there's a responsibility upon the provider sector and community in general, that this is part of the way in which we must go forward, and indeed the nationally strategy that ANTA is in the process of launching this year, has an important contribution to making this area, recognising that elearning should be available for everyone. And indigenous communities are hungry for knowledge. They travel widely, they are connected, and ensuring that they are part of this process through VET sector, I think is essential. And their long term opportunities for employment need to be considered in terms of this technology.

Frank: Just switching to VET professionals, what do you think are the characteristics and a flexible learning innovator, and how do we nurture innovators in an environment of scarce resources and outcomes during the funding?

Janina: I think the challenges within the profession itself, wanting to continue engaging, I mean for an organisation and individual involved in teaching and learning then its incumbent upon participants to continue their own learning, and elearning is the way forward. Its one strategy, the tool itself was not enough, its part of the process I think recognising that networking through elearning is part of the process, but you also need to interface with people, its not alone, you can't do online technology alone, as a learning environment. I mean, yes it's a part methodology, the profession itself has access to it, and things about using it for teaching purposes, but its also for their own point of view, and learning and enhancing their capability long term. And I think the challenge, indeed here in Western Australia, its evident there's been some success in encouraging the VET sector to really pickup through the toolbox environment, utilising this as part of their own learning and I think we're well ahead in the VET sector, and in the secondary education environment, because its been encouraged within the sector. There's real value, its seen to be an industry opportunity. And for the professional themselves, being at the front edge, gives them an opportunity to engage in a way that's very different from their students.

Frank: have you any suggestions for innovators as to how they can become change managers within their organisations?

Janina: how to become a change manager in an environment, I've come across a number of them and I understand the challenges, I think people who are passionate about learning will take up these opportunities, and their passion spreads, but its also that the system, the vocational education and training system industry supports this area, and that (?) comes from this industry engagement, I think adds to their capability of being able to determinate this change. The reality is, that industry is already at the cutting edge, how then do we ensure that the professional stays with that environment as well, they participate, they're in the discussions, they're online discussing how they go about implementing this change. They are a person who builds that expertise, and then shares that knowledge. It's about demonstrating what we want to see happening, both in the workplace, and in our teaching environment. So that's how you build the change management environment. And I think the fact that there has been a huge investment by the states and commonwealth, indicates that that's how seriously we take this. I mean, its eighty million dollars that's gone into the flexible learning area. We have very very successful models in place, we know that people are utilising the toolboxes, we know that these opportunities exist, to enhance the teaching environment. Its leading the way by showing that this is possible, and you get some really good results out of it, you get really enthusiastic students, you get an industry that says, you know what your doing, we want more of you. And it also gives it that capability of doing things differently, Its not face to face sitting in a classroom. It is networked, demonstrating that we can learn from the innovation that comes from other people's knowledge. And I think the professionals who engage in that area, really at the end of the day, a conservative environment, they're sitting outside it anyway. They'll be at the leading edge, the rest of the group will come along, and if they don't, I think that that's one of the things we've got to address. The investment in this environment is because we know this is the way forward, that is the future, the reality is that a lot of people are new guys, and they want to spread it.

Frank: there's been a great deal of talk about flexible learning and using new technologies in all sectors of education and training, but clearly there's some sceptics around who believe there's not been a high take up of online technologies. Do you agree with this point of view? Or have you a different perception.

Janina: I think there is a high uptake, maybe not in the teaching environment across the board, but certainly states are putting a lot of resources into it, because they know that the changes they want to see come as a result of the infrastructure that they put in place. Its not a case of sitting on the sidelines and saying this isn't going to be the way forward, we've seen people who have done that, and they've been well and truly overtaken by the change. And in fact, if you engage in the change process, then you're shaping our future, if you're sitting on the sideline criticising it, then reality is, you'll be left to one side. I think that industries already engaged in that area, it's demonstrating that it cannot stay at a competitive front for the environment internationally unless it's got an elearning knowledge environment. It's surprising that the teaching and learning environment really suggests that this is not the way forward.

Frank: why do you say that?

Janina: it's to say that the industry innovation that's shaping our employment future is not a good thing, and I think the way in which you engage, ensuring that it is good for all of us, is by participating, not criticising. And I think the contribution has been made, as I said, the eighty million dollars, up till the end of next year, over a four year period, I think indicates that this is being taken very seriously. Its not the only tool, but this is about client centred education. This is looking at, how is it that people are now engaging with technology? Kids today are far more facile with technology then they were you know, five or ten years ago. But what is it that it does that is different, its not the only solution, we still need good mentors, you still good coaches in the teaching environment, and in fact that's what industry does, it doesn't rely on one methodology, it relies on experiential learning, it relies on simulated learning, if your going to be involved in utilising heavy equipment, your not put in charge of the truck the first day, you spend some time using technology, to help you understand what the circumstances are. I mean quantas is a good example, it utilises that technology constantly, and thank goodness they do, because we rely on them to do so. And they're people at the cutting edge, and they're training is a high level of innovation. So I think you have to look at this in terms of its context of utilising technology, its not the only answer, it's a way of engaging that I think adds such huge benefits to the learner, that to criticise it without engaging with it, I think leaves you at risk.

Frank: I'd certainly agree. I think in looking at some of the learning products that have been developed over the last few years particularly, they are world class, and to dismiss them without really engaging with them is really a mistake. What vision for the future, what do you think the VET system will look like in five years time.

Janina: well I'm certainly hoping it will be recognisable, but it will be different, it will utilise the full range of teaching and learning, with a focus on the client and the learner. And recognise that its there to achieve outcomes, as part of industry. I've seen some very exciting developments both in the VET sector, as we mentioned a couple of the experiences. But also in the way in which industry is now expanding funding, for its own skill set. And they are pushing ahead into a networked world that doesn't always engage in the accredited training environment. And I think that's the challenge. And if we're not very careful, the investment that we have won't be utilised to make sure that all industry maintains its competitiveness and indeed continues to employ (?). and so the future needs to be fully engaged with all the technologies available to us. Considering the training is delivered by computer, by TV, the fact that we know that the age care environment is recognising that shifts and times means that many of the professionals in the environment can't always get to training colleges during the day. The reality is, they log on to the system, they go through their modules, they get additional accreditation, it helps the organisation, it maintains high levels of the care in the organisation, its delivered to eight-thousand staff across Australia. Now this is not impossible this is here and now. What its going to look like in five years time, well going where we're already seeing in industry and in those TAFE and RTO facilities that are at the cutting edge, and that's what the next five years will be, rolling out successively across the whole sector. I think that it's a very exciting environment, I think it presents some challenges, in terms of delivery and the types of modules that we put online. And challenges the way in which we currently configure our training. But ultimately, if we don't do that, if we don't step forward into that future, and really shape what that looks like and go forward, then I think that we'll have a model run system(?) and that would be a tragedy. Because so much good work is already out there in the elearning environment.

Frank: I think a client driven, VET future is certainly challenging, but with the work that we're putting into VET products, and services, its not beyond us. Its been very interesting listening to your visions for the future, Janina thank you for being part of the ejournal, maybe we can do this again in a years time.

Janina: well I'd be delighted to, thankyou very much for the opportunity, I've enjoyed it.